ANCOR Links: Season 1, Episode 4

André Floyd

Hello, and welcome to another episode of ANCOR Links. I am André Floyd, I’m your host for this podcast. Before we get into our featured conversation, I have Alli Strong-Martin, one of my co-workers with me because Alli and I discovered that we have a shared passion. And passion may be too strong of a word. But I’m going to use it anyway. Because I think it is representative of at least how I feel about the show. I almost hesitate to say it because it’s very funny when I like people either have like a great, you know, response when I mentioned it, or they’re like, really? And I’m like, yes, absolutely. So, Alli, please tell me how you feel in general about the Great British Bake Off.

Alli Strong-Martin

I love the Great British Bake Off. I have watched it for many years. And it’s something that I look forward to when I hear that a new season is coming out. And yeah, it’s like, you could call it a guilty pleasure. But honestly, I don’t really feel guilty about it.

André Floyd

I love that energy because I’m the same way. When I talk about it and people don’t watch it. I’m just like, you know what? Your loss, it’s fine. Now, I’ll give the disclaimer upfront. Two disclaimers. This show doesn’t always get cultural things right. We found that out, particularly last season. So don’t endorse everything that they do. But there’s a specific reason why we’re going to talk about the Great British Bake Off in this episode and why I wanted to have this chat with Alli because as both fellow passionate bakeoff watchers, we must have this discussion. But the other thing is because the current season is ongoing. We are going to avoid spoilers. So in case you haven’t watched it and are interested, you can continue to listen, we will not tell you anything—star bakers or who got eliminated each week—we’re not going to mention any of that. But we are going to talk about a contestant on the show. Because I believe we had the same reaction when we recognized who it was when we saw what it was and how it was happening is a very different aspect to add to the show. And we both loved it immediately. And ever since like each episode has just been such a fun experience to watch. And I believe we both had the same reaction. So, Tasha, one of the bakers on this edition of the show is hearing impaired. And first of all, I heard that there was a hearing-impaired contestant on the show before I started watching. We were doing a little, you know, planning for a Policy Summit. So I didn’t watch when the first episode dropped, which was fine. But I was like, oh, this sounds cool. I wonder how they handled this. Again, I will reference that I said they don’t always do these things well. And so I was kind of curious how this was gonna be, when they introduced Tasha, even before they introduced Tasha, what was your reaction?

Alli Strong-Martin

So, I am going to share that even though I was also planning for the policy summit, I did watch the first episode, the day that it aired. I will say that there. So, I didn’t know that there was a hard-of-hearing or Deaf contestant on this year’s season, until watching it. And when they open the show, they’ve got the two judges up front and the two hosts. And then this year, there was a fifth person up front of the tent, as they call it. And they just said, this is an additional kind of member of the team. This year, they introduced Tasha’s British Sign Language interpreter. And they just said he’s going to be joining us every episode, and this is that. And they just kind of made it really like this, it was a natural, natural thing to have an interpreter up front.

André Floyd

Yeah. And I thought that was awesome. Because it wasn’t that they, you know, singled her out at the beginning, you know, pointed like, she needs this, it was just like this person is here. They’re going to be doing sign language moving on with the rest of the show. And I think that’s how you do it. You know, you don’t need to get into it. Because eventually, you do meet the bakers one by one, as they’re going through their first challenges and all of that. And that’s really fun. And that’s part of the charm of the show. So, to be introduced to her by like she needs this would have been a little wrong in my estimation, because you still want to tap highlight her as a baker. You know, that’s what the show is all about. And so I thought that was a great way to do it. And then of course, throughout the process of the show, as you’re meeting all the bakers, you finally come across Tasha and you see her signing and you see you know, she does have like a hearing device on her ear, and you’re like, okay, this is who it is for but you have that knowledge before you meet her. So, then you’re able to focus just on her personnel. which I will say is amazing. She’s so fun.

Alli Strong-Martin

She is amazing. And yeah, you and I just when we discovered that we were both, maybe not super fans, but that we were pretty big fans.

André Floyd

I’m gonna, I’m gonna come out and just label myself as a superfan.

Alli Strong-Martin

All right, André’s a bakeoff super fan.

André Floyd

Oh I meant a Tasha super fan.

Alli Strong-Martin

Okay, okay, then yeah, I’m a super fan, too. And, yeah, when we were just talking about how much Tasha was, like, stood out in personality. And not only that, but like talent, and just yeah, that she was just really able to shine in the first couple episodes of this season.

André Floyd

Yeah, I think that’s such a cool thing. Because again, the combination didn’t single her out, didn’t make her feel any sort of way, at least from us, you know, the viewer, again, don’t know how things happened internally. But it does sound like they made decisions before the airing of episodes to do with the way that they did it. And I think that that works. If that’s if that’s truly what happened. As we saw it, then. That’s awesome. Because it really helps. And I think just having that and getting to know her as you get to know all of the bakers. So I will, I’ll take a quick caveat away. And let people know the reason why I love this show so much is because, to me, it’s almost like viewing a different world. Like there’s a wholesomeness in this show that just doesn’t exist anywhere. And so, it’s kind of like, because some of the other stuff I like to watch is like, I like to watch a lot like, you know, interesting series, whether it’s like sci-fi or drama related or something that shows like high stakes in a show that I don’t get stressed out about them, but they are intense to watch. Whereas watching this, it’s kind of like a palette cleanser, you’re having a bad day, or whatever, and you watch an episode of The Great British Bake Off. You’re just like, these people are fun, quirky, charming, goofy, like, and they have their very distinct personalities. And they seem like they follow their personalities and let them do like, on this episode. I know I said no spoilers. I’m just gonna say foraging comes up from time to time and I’m just like, wow, that’s kind of amazing. So like, yeah, there’s just these like niche interests that I really appreciate about the show. And that’s one thing that I love so getting to know Tasha from that level from that lens as well as her full self and her personality has been great because she genuinely is like the funniest and most vibrant baker so far this season. She’s so funny. And the hosts always come around and tease and joke about them in the middle of their bakes. And every single like segment with her and the judges, or her and the host is just hilarious. It’s very funny, and she’s fit right in. And she’s been incredible. Now, I told you superfan I’m admitting to being a superfan.

Alli Strong-Martin

And one thing also I’ll say that, like, I’m just realizing now as you’re talking André, is how they this year, they also modeled through her ways that all of us in our day-to-day lives can interact with people who are Deaf and hard of hearing, right? So, the judges and the hosts when they go over like you said talk to Tasha are like cracking up laughing because of what she’s saying they’re looking at her and they’re talking directly to her. And then she gets to look at the interpreter that she has there. And she, you know, they’re not they’re not talking to her interpreter. They’re not excluding her from the conversation. So yeah, like that modeling has been really cool to see play out and like reminds me of like, oh, yeah, this is this is the way that everyone should be interacting, even outside of this ideal world of bake-off.

André Floyd

Yeah, and it’s so simple. You know, it’s just like, you want to have people whoever they are, to be able to give their full selves and full personalities. And that’s what’s been so great about it because it hasn’t been some massive and you know, again, not putting degrees on it or anything like that whatever the accommodation is needed, it’s necessary and will benefit the person but also everyone else because you’re getting a full engaged person and not just part of a person. So that part of it I love and it seems like it has paid off already so tremendously with her and she deserves a lot of credit as well because she’s very comfortable as well. And she again is very funny herself. But I think taking it out of the world of bake off a bit and credit to the third member of our podcast team, Tricia DePalatis, for doing a little bit of homework ahead of this discussion for us. She found a New York Times article that also cited a Nielsen study That was done in 2022. So, it’s not the most like the newest thing, but it’s also only just over a year old. And given the scope of it, when I tell you the dates, I think you will understand that that’s fine. So, one of the key points in this study was they looked at films and TV shows and analyzed them from the year 1918 until 2022, over 100 years of entertainment content. Yeah, it’s incredible to do that. They analyzed it. And they found that 4.2% of the 164,000 films and TV shows that they analyzed only 4.2% had significant disability themes or content. Now, juxtapose that against another study that we know and they’ve mentioned this, and of course, the number changes a little bit because of course, as we know, in this field, disability means different things to certain people and how it’s defined. But broadly speaking, they mentioned that approximately 26% of adults in the US have a disability. So when you think of 26%, versus 4.2, there’s a massive gap there. And not only you’re missing from entertainment, but that also reflects what’s missing from society, from everyday life from the job perspective. And it’s just interesting to juxtapose the ease and the importance of what we’re seeing with Tasha versus kind of how we’re still seeing this be a struggle, even today in real life.

Alli Strong-Martin

And the like, the differences in whether that representation is authentic, or is, you know, problematic of dislike representing disability, like there’s been other studies done about representation in media, you know, disabilities being portrayed by non-disabled actors, or having kind of problematic stereotypes or tropes be reinforced. So yes, like you said, that disparity in 4.2% versus 26% of the US adult population having a disability that super stark, and as we see that increase, I think we are seeing a little bit more authentic representation than in the past. But like you said, we still have a long way to go.

André Floyd

Yeah, and I love what you said, authentic representation, because I think that’s important as well, and which is why I wanted to spend some time talking about how they introduced Tasha, and how they introduced the interpreter, where you meet the interpreter first, but you don’t get anything other than that. And then you naturally meet Tasha, and it just really allows that authenticity to build, and get to know and once you build and get to know, now you’re, you’re on a better path towards realizing and understanding and getting to know a full person. And that’s kind of like what we all want. We all want our full selves. And so it seems like having to analyze it, this deeply feels like obvious, clearly. But it hasn’t been that way. So when you see it, especially in a situation like this, you know, I don’t know how much of the internet memes you follow. But like almost every single episode, I do the Leonardo DiCaprio, DiCaprio meme where he’s pointing at the TV. Like, I’m basically like, there it is. There it is. It’s what I want. It’s amazing.

Alli Strong-Martin

All right. So, André, I could talk about bake-off for probably 30 more minutes, but I know that we actually have a podcast episode to get to. And I don’t know, I think that there’s such even though we were you know, this is a fun intro and a fun, as you call it, goofy, exploration of something that’s going on in media today. I think that there’s a real connection to what we’re going to talk about later in this episode. We’re talking about accommodations and access and just what can happen when people with disabilities are afforded their rights to reasonable accommodations, their right to accessibility. I just think that this is again, a fun but real-life example of what is possible when we’re in our communities when our workplaces afford those accommodations and are actually able to uphold the rights of people with disabilities. Right. So we think about just how there’s still stigma and bias maybe in this example of an internationally known TV show, that maybe there’s a stigma or a bias that someone who is Deaf or hard of hearing, or has a limb difference as we’ve seen in a previous season of Bake Off, you know, maybe the biases that those persons would not be as capable of not just the baking part of it, but the communication part that goes into being on a TV show, right? There’s definitely still stigma and outright ableism, that our society still holds opinions about people with disabilities, and that I think, contributes to society having low expectations for people with disabilities and what they can and cannot do or accomplish. And I think that this, this conversation about bakeoff, about Tasha about accommodations, how she’s just been able to, to be her full self, and show up and steal the show, really, that’s a really great example of what can happen across the world and in different settings in our communities and workplaces, when we offer those accommodations that, again, like you said, don’t have to be a big deal. They don’t have to cost a lot of money. And it’s just something that takes awareness. And it’s kind of on us, as a society to really do that work to think about who were who we’re including, and who we’re excluding.

André Floyd

Yeah, I love the point that you ended on, too, because it is all about inclusion. And so whether we’re talking about, you know, a show that makes me feel good when I need to feel good as a bake-off, because who doesn’t love to look at a beautiful, I was gonna say, I was trying to be like, cute and say something about the show, because they introduced me to all sorts of pastries, and I can’t remember one right now, because I’m under pressure, I was just gonna say cake. But that sounds to un-elegant for what they did. Apologies. But yeah, I think it’s whether it’s that, or again, whether it’s workforce, or whether it’s friend group, or whether it’s anything related to we have this conversation to it anchor a bit, it looks like we use like “in the community” so much, and we understand that, but really, like, when we go hang out, you know, people without disabilities, or anybody, we don’t say, Hey, we’re going into the community, right? So it’s just kind of like removing these societal expectations is important, but also just the way that it’s talked about discussed and integrated, is so important. And so this is where I think that we’re going to transition and link this to the conversation that we really have, where we’re going to have to have a discussion about it from an employment standpoint. But this is also a show of what can be when you challenge societal expectations of people with disabilities. What’s possible when you provide accommodation, you know, those sorts of things. So we’re going to transition from talking about Tasha and Bake Off because we absolutely had to. And plus, I believe the new episode is out, so I have to go watch it. But we’re gonna leave you with this conversation is between Sean Luechtefeld, who is the vice president of membership and communications here at ANCOR, talking to Leslie Wilson, who is working with Disability:IN. She’s the executive vice president of global workplace initiatives. Leslie just gives so many gems, so much great information about looking at hiring people with disabilities, the struggles, but also making the business case for it as well, which is something that doesn’t typically come to mind. And it’s shifting, again, shifting the framing of the conversation from something that’s more in line of charity, tomorrow in line of here’s what you’re missing. And here’s how you’re actually being hurt because of you missing this, this opportunity. And I think that is so important. So I want to go ahead and like phase, the phase the conversation to that while Alli and I go hang out with Tasha, a little bit more.

Alli Strong-Martin

Yep, press play!

André Floyd

Take it away, Sean and Leslie.

Sean Luechtefeld

For those of us who work in the field, supporting providers of services to people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, we see countless stories of the kinds of outcomes that are possible when we set aside our assumptions about what people are capable of, and commit to the notion that all of us have talents that can translate into meaningful work. Those of us in this field often also recognize that sometimes folks need a little extra support to help them find and maintain employment. But there’s another ingredient that is essential to employment success for people with disabilities. And that is a base of employers who are bought into the idea of inclusive hiring. In other words, it’s not enough for people to want to work or for providers to support those aspirations. There also needs to be people willing to hire those with disabilities, because they recognize the value to their businesses and to the communities they serve. Fortunately, there’s been a growing number of employers have all shapes and sizes, but notably growing willingness among some of the largest, most well-known employers who recognize that we all do better when opportunity extends to everyone. Some of that has been made possible thanks in part to organizations like Disability:IN, a leading resource for Business Disability Inclusion worldwide. Disability:IN, a network of over 500 corporations, expands opportunities for people with disabilities across enterprises, and serves as a collective voice to affect change for people with disabilities and businesses to talk about how they achieve that. And to talk with me more broadly about the employer side of the inclusive hiring equation. I am joined by Leslie Wilson, one of my earliest mentors in my career, and Disability:IN’s Executive Vice President for Global Workplace Initiatives. Leslie, welcome to ANCOR Links.

Leslie Wilson

Thank you, Sean.

Sean Luechtefeld

Can you start out by telling us a little bit about your background professionally, and how you ended up sort of working in this field and taking the pathway that you took?

Leslie Wilson

So, I started out many years ago at the Arc Pennsylvania and the Arc Pennsylvania is a part of the national network that is advocating for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. I had a cousin with an intellectual disability. And I was really intrigued by what the Arc was doing. And in addition, I always say they raised me because the Arc’s Board of Directors was made up of parents of individuals with intellectual developmental disabilities, who were very, very committed to ensuring that their children and other people’s children had access to services in the community. Then I moved to another state. And I got involved in employment, because I saw these high numbers of unemployment among people with intellectual developmental disabilities, and not just those individuals, but all people with disabilities had high unemployment rates. And I became very committed to working with companies to encourage them to hire more people. And I think that was like the period where I realized we focus so much on services to people with disabilities. But we didn’t focus on the other side of that demand equation, which was business, because without business, we don’t have jobs. And so we really needed to focus our attention on bringing businesses along with us, as well as serving people with developmental and intellectual disabilities to work in the workplace. But Disability:IN we are advocates for all people with disabilities to be gainfully employed.

Sean Luechtefeld

And I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation because as long as I’ve known you, I don’t think I realized that you were a family member of a person with a disability. And that was sort of also how I got into this field as well. I have an aunt, my mom’s younger sister who has an intellectual disability, was actually supported by an Arc chapter for many, many years. And it wasn’t until she came to live with my family after my grandparents passed away, that she ever had her first job, you know, and I think she was in her early to mid-40s. And nobody had ever believed she could work. But when she started to work, it just made such an incredible difference in her not just in her work life and her ability to feel fulfilled, but in all sorts of other aspects of life as well. And I think that really speaks to the power of work. You know, we know that work is so powerful, and can make such a difference for so many people. But my understanding is that the number of people who have disabilities and are employed, still lags behind the general population. So, I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about what is the current status of disability employment? And what does that world look like for folks who may not be familiar?

Leslie Wilson

So, the good news is that we are making incremental progress. It’s incremental. I mean, one of my favorite things is raging incrementalism. It never moves fast enough. But we are seeing progress. So, every month, I get an email from the Kessler Foundation titled national trends in disability employment and tied, the last report was September 2023. So it’s very current data. They compared the employment participation rate of people with disabilities in 2022, to the employment labor force participation rate of people with disabilities in 2023. And what we saw is a 2.3% percentage point increase from 38% to 40.3%. Now, not terrific, but a gradual improvement. At the same time, people without disabilities had a 77.1% participation rate in 2022. But that rate went up 0.8 percentage points, from 2022 to 2023. So on much smaller increase in participation rate for those without disabilities, as compared to those with disabilities. So there isn’t good news to some extent, I think part of it is the result of that endemic, if you think about how difficult it is for people with disabilities who do not have a car, who are unable to drive, who don’t live near public transportation, to get to work, and to get to work on time, it’s almost impossible. I heard one of the employees who had a disability working from one of the major companies speak on this during the pandemic. And he said, this was such a benefit to him, that he was able to work from home, and to prove that he was more productive, working from home than he was when he had to commute and had difficulty getting to work on time. So I think they’re, they’re, you know, the pandemic really did switch things up, in that it made it easier for people to work from home. Now, the issue is, many companies are starting to say, well, you have to come to work, you have to come to the office. And or seeing some pushback from people with disabilities because they realized how much more beneficial it was to them to work from home.

Sean Luechtefeld

Well, and there are so many tertiary services that need to exist at a robust level in order for folks to be able to take advantage of the opportunity if they are required to go back. And I mean, I think about I live in the Washington, DC area, and even our public transit is not back to pre-pandemic levels in terms of the amount of service. And some of that is due to staffing shortages that we see in our own field. So, I’m curious, you know, if you had a crystal ball and could project out into the future, say three or five years, do you see more opportunities for folks with disabilities to be employed?

Leslie Wilson

Oh, absolutely. I think that one of the things that disability in has done and done so well, is to raise awareness of the fact that one out of four of the company’s employees have disabilities, one out of four, or 27%, according to the CDC, just recently, and when you start talking to companies, and you bring these statistics up, it’s just amazing to see this light bulbs go on. As a matter of fact, I was sitting across from a chief legal counsel recently, and I mentioned this and she said, oh, yeah, well, I’m a person with a disability, I had breast cancer, I’m in recovery. But as we know, under the ADA, even though you’re in recovery, that could return anytime, and you would again, be a person with an active disability. So, I think awareness is such an important piece of this is getting companies to realize that people with disabilities are already there. And then they see the value, you know, of individuals with disabilities based on their own performance, has really made a big change. But organizations like Disability:IN really are making those inroads.

Sean Luechtefeld

Yeah, I think that’s so true. I mean, you know, we think about how do we build buy-in for companies to want to hire people with disabilities, but the reality is that folks are already doing it, they just may not know, because a lot of disabilities are, of course invisible. So that brings me to my other question, which is, how is it that organizations like disability in and I’m sure there are a number of your national peer organizations that are moving the needle, but what are those organizations doing to sort of help move more in the direction that we need to go when it comes to employment outcomes.

Leslie Wilson

So I will give you an example, Disability:IN has the Disability Equality Index, it’s a benchmarking tool, it evaluates where a company is, on disability inclusion in five domains. It’s amazing when I run a program called Inclusion Works that brings 134 companies, major companies, all the bigs, together in a community of corporations to share best practices and learn from each other. So, what we’re seeing is when they first come into the program, we very much like them to take the disability equality index if they haven’t already, because it actually gives us a roadmap to help them become more disability inclusive. And I think, you know, recognition of where how do you get somewhere if you don’t know where you are now. And that’s the beautiful thing about the disability equality index, it says to them, where you have real problems and accessibility. So this is an area that you really need to work on. So we’ve had companies, for example, and Inclusion Works, we had a company score a 10, on the Disability Equality Index, 10, out of 100, we only announced companies that score between 80 and 100, as best places to work for people with disabilities. So as soon as that happened, we all went, okay, we really need to work on this. So, through Inclusion Works, each company has a consultant with 5 to 10 years of experience at the corporate level, as well as disability inclusion experience. It’s an amazing group of consultants, there are 17. And they started really working intensely with the company, including the leadership, you gotta get the leadership, that’s a big piece of this. You got to engage them. Well, when you get back a score like that. Leadership takes notice and says, oh, my, this is something we really need to work on. And they did and the next year with the intense support me I was involved in, our DEI director was involved that consultant was involved. The next year they scored 100. They made tremendous job progress with our support. So the inclusion works program is really a crucial program to bring companies law I always say We’re under their hood. We’re up in their grill, we, we can see firsthand what they’re doing. However I want to mention that everything we do with them is customized, we meet them where they are, we don’t push, we meet with them where they are hopefully using the disability equality index data to help them progress in that journey. And it’s worked, it’s worked very well, the inclusion works companies last year had an overall score, an average of 92 on the Disability Equality Index.

Sean Luechtefeld

I mean, that that’s incredible. And I mean, I think clearly a testament to the work that you and your team are doing. And they love this notion of being all up in their grill and kind of, you know, really getting a behind-the-scenes look at what they’re doing right and opportunities to build on, but also where they’re sort of getting it wrong. Just getting down to the brass tacks a little bit, can you share some examples of the types of things that you find yourself recommending to employers? Like, you know, are they really massive overhauls? Or are they more in the ballpark of smaller tweaks that can make a big difference when it comes to inclusion?

Leslie Wilson

It depends on the company, for sure. It depends on how they scored and where they have issues. So we just had a company score very poorly on the accessibility portion. So that that was huge. I mean, they got zero points in that section, very concerning. So that becomes a priority. But we have to get them to agree that that’s a priority. But having that score, and seeing what’s going on, really helps them to raise awareness of what needs to be done. And then what we do is we take where they are, what they’ve done well, where the areas of room for improvement are, and we help them to prioritize, we actually even will color code that plan green meaning you can do this pretty quickly, we together we can make this happen. But then you have other areas that are going to take a little more time, it’s not going to happen right out of the chute, you’re gonna have to get a lot of commitment from the company, you’re gonna have to work through this. And it means resources, it means funding, it means people. But what we have found is the companies very much want to improve, they want to make sure that they do well, and that they have a score, that not just a score, but it’s a reflection of the time, effort and resources that they’ve put into this, to ensure that they are disability-inclusive.

Sean Luechtefeld

Maybe I’m wrong about this, but that’s where it feels like there has been real progress in the last 5 to 10 years, and then accelerated through the pandemic is, you know, you can have all of the assessments and you can have all of the recommendations. But at the end of the day, if you don’t have employers that are willing and interested and committed, then none of it’s going to make a difference. And so I think it’s really powerful that you have not only helped to build the will of these companies, but also that, you know, you’re taking advantage of their own recognition that there’s real value in having diverse workplaces.

Leslie Wilson

So I think they’re, you know, we learned through a DEI pilot that we did in 2021 and 2022, is that executive leadership support is crucial, you have to find a champion within the leadership. And it’s not hard, because all if you literally look at the data, 9 out of 10 of us have someone with a disability in our families. And so it touches a lot of a lot of people. So if you get that executive leader support, then you get an executive who has a disability who is a very strong ally, you have an active business or employee resource group for folks with disabilities, that’s huge. And those things really are that recipe for success. And they are more powerful predictors, then localized legal frameworks, things that companies are required to do for compliance, and adding these things in are more powerful predictors of success than those legal frameworks that are things that are required to do. So we’ve realized was really important. And we really work with companies to find that executive champion, it’s not hard, it’s really actually pretty easy.

Sean Luechtefeld

Right, they’re often there already. You just have to find them.

Leslie Wilson

We just need to tap it and get them to speak out. And I think that’s another very, very big important piece of this self-disclosure. You know, we have self-identity, self ID, but self-identification, which is required for federal contracts, which is about 40,000 federal contractors in the US, they are required to ask people to self ID, initially when they come into being put under compliance rules, but then every five years, but what really has an impact is self-disclosure, when someone with a disability stands up and says, I’m a person with a disability, and I want you to know, and then to talk about it, because what happens then there are other people in the company, that one out of four, they’re like, oh, gosh, if he can do it, if he can speak up, then I can also speak up and the more we get people to speak up to join the employee resource group, the more things change within the company.

Sean Luechtefeld

I think that’s incredible. And it sounds like knowing kind of the motivations is really helpful for folks who are trying to engage with employers. And, you know, we have a lot of listeners, for example, who provide services and they are eager to connect with employers in their communities. I’m curious, what other tips or advice would you offer to folks who are looking to build those connections with employers in their communities, as they seek to find opportunities for folks with disabilities?

Leslie Wilson

You have to speak the language that they think in, you have to speak the language of business. That’s why our consultants will have 5 to 10 years of corporate experience, along with disability inclusion experience, you can’t participate in the Inclusion Works program if you don’t have that background, because you’re interfacing with these major companies and these leaders, and you have to be able to speak their language. And I think it’s really important for people to remember, these are businesses, they’re not service organizations, they don’t exist to accommodate people with disabilities, they exist to improve shareholder returns, to make a profit. So, when you can put your thoughts in, though the way they think that’s when there’s real success. I’ll give you an example. You go onto our website, disabilityin.org. And you can take a look at what we found through the Accenture report. And yeah, I think you can easily find it, I think it’s in our open library. And basically, Accenture found that there were 45 disability inclusion performers using four years of our disability equality index data, on average, those performers achieved 28%, higher revenue, two times net income 30%, stronger profits, and two times stronger shareholder returns as a result of being more disability inclusive than the companies they were compared to that data. I was like gold for us, because we were so excited to get that to see that we can quantify that your business runs on metrics. And if you can come with metrics, it’s going to be really much more interesting. But you also have to be able to show your metrics locally, you have to show your success, right? Which companies have you worked with? Would they be willing to give you a testimonial, how successful half the people you place there been? What’s the retention rate. So think in terms of metrics, because that’s how business runs?

Sean Luechtefeld

Right? Well, and not to throw my fellow Nonprofit Professionals under the bus. But I have spent my entire career in nonprofits. So I feel like I can, you know, say this, which is that we don’t do a great job of speaking in a language that makes the business case, we always want to focus on why hiring people with disabilities is the right thing to do. And that’s valuable to some people that might be a motivating factor. But the reality is, that it also has to be profitable and also has to enable the business to grow in a way that’s sustainable. And I think we just need to be less afraid to speak in that language and, to recognize that that’s not a bad thing to focus on those things. Because that is just a different perspective that that sector is coming from compared to what we might be used to. But it’s crucial.

Leslie Wilson

And when I started this conversation, I learned very quickly, as I mentioned that, yes, we have the services to people with disabilities. And that’s a priority. But we cannot get people employed if we don’t pay attention to the business and the business’s needs. For business, it’s all about performance. But really, when you get down to it, it doesn’t matter who you are in any company performance is crucial to employment.

Sean Luechtefeld

Well, and I want to underscore the other thing you said, too, which is that getting testimonials can be really powerful. And I think what’s powerful there is that it’s not just about the ability to speak the language, but it’s for the message to come from somebody who is a peer. So when a business leader hears it from a provider or a human services organization, that may not be as compelling as when they hear it from one of their peers within the local business community. And that I feel like is where it gets really powerful. And then that endorsement can really tip the scales in favor of inclusive hiring.

Leslie Wilson

Absolutely. It’s crucial business we formed. We figured it out early on with the Inclusion Works program when they were bringing companies together twice a year, we were connecting them between those meetings. We learned very quickly. Business learns best when it learns from each other. So when we have our biannual meetings with the Inclusion Works companies, you will not hear us speak who you will hear speak is the businesses, our panels are all made up of corporations, and corporate executives, they’re the ones who do the presentations to talk about what they’re doing. Because when one business hears from another business is much more impactful than hearing from us. We can set it up and make it happen. But you’re not going to see us at the podium much you might see a start out but we aren’t going to be the ones presenting.

Sean Luechtefeld

Right. You’re the one handing off the microphone and letting those voices come from within that community. Right. Looking ahead, what are the things that you’re really excited about that Disability:IN is working on? Or what are some milestones that you and your team are really driving toward?

Leslie Wilson

There’s so much I mean, I think if you go to our website and you look at what we do, Disability:IN has the Disability Equality Index, we’ve got Disability on Business Enterprises, that’s a very important piece of supplier diversity are well over 500 certified businesses. So for people who want to be self-employed, we are also working on a Next-Gen Leaders Program, which is a program where we bring college students and recent graduates to our conference, as well as connect them to mentors. And the amazing thing is, you know, years ago was really hard to get corporations to participate. Now we have more corporate representatives wanting to participate, then we have people to mentor, it has really flipped on its ear. It’s amazing to me. But as far as what I do two things. One is the Inclusion Works program, and that continues to grow. We went from six companies in 2014. We’re now 134. So it’s a 1,000% increase.

Sean Luechtefeld

Incredible.

Leslie Wilson

Yeah, we had three consultants now we have 17. I mean, it’s just been huge growth. So we’re gonna celebrate our 10th year next year. And I’m really proud of those accomplishments. We track quarterly hiring numbers from the companies, most of the companies will give us those numbers. And at this stage, we had 330,000 new hires of people with disabilities, since the program started, it’s an amazing result that makes me very, very proud when I think about the number of companies we have engaged and the fact that they are hiring more people with disabilities, and they become more sensitive to really creating an inclusive workplace that brings people with disabilities in and helps them to be successful. So those are, that’s all exciting. We’re moving globally. I’m leading our global initiatives, we are doing a big event in Japan. Next year, we’ll be in Dublin. And we’ll also be in Sao Paulo, Brazil. But there are a lot of other things that are going on around our global initiatives. And I know you, you’re looking more at the US. So this is not as important to you.

Sean Luechtefeld

Well, but I do want to actually dig in on that a little bit, because I’m curious about what you see to be some of the cultural differences and how that impacts this conversation. You know, if we were having it in a US context versus a more global context?

Leslie Wilson

You know, the US is farther ahead. In most cases, we are because of the Americans with Disabilities Act over 30 years ago, it raised awareness. Yes, we have a lot to do. But it has really helped to move things along. When I look at where we were with companies when we started inclusion marks in 2014. And where we are now there’s no comparison. It’s amazing to me, what the companies are doing, and how much more disability inclusive they are. When you go outside of the US, it depends on where you are, if you’re in Europe, for example, it’s a little more similar to what we do, I would say we speak a similar language for the most part, but culture is somewhat it’s different. But it’s similar at the same time, when you go into Asia, that’s when it becomes much more complicated. Because you have a lot of language differences, you have cultural differences. And our job is to learn how that all works. We do have an we’re adding consultants to disability and who live and work in those regions. Our APEC consultant is based in Taipei, Taiwan, she is terrific, can’t say enough. She was with the World Economic Fund, she was with the United Nations. She speaks three languages, she’s amazing. And she is helping us to have a better understanding of that Asian culture. We can’t sit in the US and expect to know everything about the rest of the world. We can’t, we’ve brought more people in those in those regions who do understand. And we’ll continue to build out those consultants because that’s crucial to us. But the one thing that we do hear from the companies that makes me very happy is right now for disability inclusion, they have to work with a different organization in most countries, but as disability and built out its corporate work globally, it means that they have they can come to us, and we can help them all over the world. And that’s really what this is all about. It’s about helping our multinational companies to be disability inclusive, no matter where they are in the world.

Sean Luechtefeld

Yeah. And when you list all those things that Disability:IN is doing, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by it all. But what a fun place to be in terms of getting to learn from so many different people and folks, different experiences and expertise. I mean, I have to imagine that’s just a complete joy. I want to ask one last question, which is, what one thing should our listeners check out? Whether it’s a book or a podcast or a TV show? What is a resource or a recommendation that you would share that you think people should definitely check out if they want to learn more about these topics?

Leslie Wilson

Go to our website. We have a lot of open source information in our library. You have total access to it. I would say that’s like really great place to start: anything from mental health to, you know, disability inclusion, the report for the Disability Equality Index annually, we do a whole report that talks about what we’ve learned. It’s all there. And there’s a lot. So I would strongly write that strongly place where I would go. If I was looking to learn more about how to work with business around disability inclusion, I’m gonna brag on us, there’s no greater risk for us than disability and when it comes to, to disability inclusion, especially when we talk about Global Inclusion.

Sean Luechtefeld

You know, you should brag on yourself because you’re doing incredible work, and it’s so valuable. So that’s disabilityin.org, correct? Yes. Well, I would encourage everybody to check that out.

Leslie Wilson

I think that what we have done at Disability:IN is really focused on business and the business case, and helping businesses to be more disability inclusive. And when we’re doing that outside of the US, that also has implications for the general culture. Because as your employees become more disability inclusive, they are taking that information home with them. And it’s affecting the culture at large. So I have a quote that I use that business is the greatest, I’m really want to make sure I get this straight because I really like this quote, I’m hoping I can put my finger on it very quickly. This is the greatest platform for global change around disability inclusion.

Sean Luechtefeld

Yeah, yeah, that feels really true. And it resonates when you think about just how big a role work plays in our lives. And you know, it’s so much more than just a paycheck. Yes, it is. Great. Well, thank you so much for not only being with us on the podcast today but also for all of the work that you and your colleagues at Disability:IN are doing. Once again, if you want to learn more about Disability:IN and the Inclusion Works program, you can visit disabilityin.org. In the meantime, take care, be well, and thanks so much for being with us.

Leslie Wilson

Thank you, Sean, so proud of you.

Sean Luechtefeld

Appreciate that, Leslie.

Leslie Wilson

Thanks.