ANCOR Links: Episode 3

André Floyd

Hello, it’s me again, your host André Floyd here for ANCOR Links. And we’re going to start this episode out a little bit differently than we started the previous two. I brought my colleague here, Alli Strong-Martin, who’s going to talk about National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And we wanted to do this because this episode, and perhaps the next episode is going to be heavily involved with things around disability employment, and some of the barriers, some of the work being done. But first, we know that this is kind of a new concept to people who may not be aware of it. But also even if you are, as I was, there’s a lot of history behind it that I just didn’t know about. So, Alli is going to help me walk through some of this. So Alli, thanks for joining, and how are you?

Alli Strong-Martin

Hey, André, thanks for having me.

André Floyd

Okay, let’s get to it. So, October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And we’ve celebrated this here at ANCOR for a while, we’ve also celebrated this with some of our partners, we normally do social media campaigns and things like that to promote the employment of people with disabilities. But Alli, you did the digging, you did the hard work. How far back does this awareness month go?

Alli Strong-Martin

This goes pretty far back. And yeah, this was something that I didn’t know until this year, actually, that the origin of National Disability Employment Awareness Month dates all the way back to 1945. So in 1945, and I’ll say here that we know that in history, some of the words that were used, we now recognize as harmful, but I’m going to still say them here just for historical context. But with that said, in 1945, Congress passed first passed a law to establish the first week in October of every year as National Employ the Physically Handicapped Week. And again, that language we’ve come a long way from that. But the context that I think is also important to note is 1945. Right after World War Two, many newly disabled veterans were seeking to reenter the US workforce.

André Floyd

Yeah, I think that’s fascinating, too, when you when you wrote that down, and we looked at the notes, and I was like, oh, wow, that makes a lot of sense. But also, as we know, kind of the problem with framing it apart from the language used, which we of course, definitely no longer use anymore, for kind of obvious reasons. But one of the biggest problems that you see is that it really identified just physically, so intellectual and developmental disabilities are not included in this as well. And that kind of even didn’t change with the update to this in 1970. I see. So what happened, what did it become in 1970?

Alli Strong-Martin

Yeah, for sure. And I think that that’s a really good point about who at different times in history, we, as a society have thought is capable of working and being in the workforce and doing a good job. And that, again, has definitely changed and evolved over time. So like you said, in 1970, Congress renamed the week as National Employ the Handicapped Week. So language didn’t change, but they dropped the “physically” in 1970. And, it wasn’t until 1988, that NDEAM, as we now know, it was expanded to the entire month of October, and it was renamed to National Disability Employment Awareness Month.

André Floyd

And so my guess is you know, I’ll be honest, I’m not old enough to have been alive during this time to note when these changes happened. But I’m going to go ahead and assume just like everything in this field, that there was a lot of activism, and a lot of people that gave a lot of commentaries, a lot of testimonials, a lot of self-advocacy, and a lot of advocacy from other places to talk about why this is so important. So yeah, I think I think the big thing is changing it from week to month was important as well, but then also expanding it as well, because the way we look at it now in the newest iteration of the month, is that it’s all about addressing the existing disparities in the workforce and why it’s important to do so.

Alli Strong-Martin

Mm hmm. 100%. I think that for me when I think about raising awareness and why we’re still honoring and celebrating this month in 2023, when it originated back in 1945, but was named this month and 1988 I think like you said, there are still ongoing disparities in the ability for people with disabilities to access inclusive employment. And so thinking that again, why in 2023, we’re still talking about awareness of disability employment.

André Floyd

And I feel like I also have to address if you heard whining in the background, it’s my dog, he’s trying to bark at the mailman. And he can’t because he’s locked in the office with me. So apologies, everyone, if you hear a dog crying, and it’s very, it’s a very sad, somber way to talk through. But it’s not related to this conversation, I assure you. Okay, so let’s look at some of the actual hard data about why it’s important who’s been excluded from the workforce, from a lot of workplaces, and some of the ablest attitudes as well that have led to that. But first, let’s kind of run through the data a little bit, because some of the numbers are, as you would expect, eye-opening and shocking and also frustrating. It really underscores why this month is important, but more so than that, I think it underscores why there needs to be work done not only this month, but throughout the entire year to change mindsets to change attitudes towards this because these numbers are, frankly, unacceptable, as we know, but also, I just think that there’s such a, and we talk about this later on in the episode. But there’s so many reasons, so many things beyond what you would initially think beyond the date of just like satisfying the number on the spreadsheet and making it look better. There’s so many other reasons. But obviously, in order to address a problem, you have to know the extent of it. And that’s what we use the data for. So Alli, share with us these troubling statistics. And maybe these are part of what my dog was crying about.

Alli Strong-Martin

It very well might have been because yeah, these statistics every year that I look at them are Yeah, they’re really shocking and surprising. And, yeah, let’s we can dive into them. So each year, the US Department of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics releases data on people with disabilities and employment, what they call the employment to population ratio. So basically, that’s the percentage of people with disabilities who are employed or working. And as compared to the percentage of the non-disabled population, who is employed. So in early 2023, the Bureau of Labor Statistics released the 2022 data. And in 2022, the employment-population ratio for people with disabilities was actually the highest it’s ever been at 21.3% of people with disabilities who were employed. That number was up from 19.1% of people with disabilities who were employed in 2021. And I think that the increase and the highest it’s ever been nugget, that sounds great, until you really compare that to the data for people without disabilities. And in the same report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics for non-disabled people, so people who don’t have disabilities 65.4% were employed in 2022. And that was up from 63.7% of people without disabilities and 2021. So to repeat 2022, only less than a quarter of people with disabilities, so 21% of people with disabilities were employed, as compared to 65% of people without disabilities.

André Floyd

Yeah, and that is a massive, massive variance and what this month and really what a lot of the work that’s going to be discussed on this episode is aimed at trying to close. So I think we should now talk a little bit about the conversations that are coming up that people are going to hear because I think this is all a good background for the problem, the extent of the problem, the month and all of that, and I think there are plenty of ways to support and we get into some of that as well. So we also are going to run through a conversation with Maya Cox, who is a board member at APSE, which is a great organization. I went there and I did a presentation along with my colleague Sasha who you haven’t yet heard on this podcast but you will. But Maya and I had a conversation about employment for people with disabilities as it relates to DEIA. We know that DEIA, diversity, equity inclusion and accessibility, that is what we refer to it as here internally to ANCOR and also externally. A lot of the intersections within a lot of DEIA work must include people with disabilities because of course As we know, it is another form of oppression. We’ve talked about ableism. And some of the reasons why employment remains low. But we also have a discussion about, you know, the work being done to try and change some of these, some of these things. And sometimes even as you’ll hear the conversation, it starts from the application process, you know, and it starts from, it’s the mindset of how do you attract? How are you excluding from the very beginning. And then, of course, it’s about other people, you know, providers and others, positioning people with disabilities for these jobs, making sure that they can apply making sure they can be considered. So there’s a wide-ranging conversation about why this should happen and the connections to DEIA, but we also then after that, have a conversation with Donna Martin, another one of my colleagues and Jeannine Pavlak, who works with the NEON project. And Alli, I think I’m going to turn to you to explain NEON and what it means and why we wanted to have Donna and Jeannine have this conversation.

Alli Strong-Martin

Sure. So happy to do so. And yeah, I’m really excited for you all, to hear that conversation. It’s a great topic that we’re that we’re focusing on. NEON is the National Expansion of Employment Opportunities Network. So I think we already said in episode two that we love some acronyms in the disability field. So National Expansion of Employment Opportunities Network is NEON. And Donna and Jeannine are going to talk about the way that NEON has been designed as an initiative to collaborate with national provider organizations, including ANCOR, including APSE who we again, talk to Maya Cox from APSE, also includes ACCSES, The Arc and SourceAmerica. So those are the current NEON partners and NEON really strives to develop strategic plans for increasing competitive and integrated employment opportunities for people that they serve. So that’s a really high-level overview, but excited for you all to hear Donna and Jeannine’s conversation coming up in a few minutes.

André Floyd

Yeah, I really love the purpose of NEON and their approach to doing it. And I think Donna and Jeannine were just the perfect people to have the conversation. They dive in deep because they do this work often. But thing and we encourage you to stick around. And also, you’ve got a lot of different ways on what you can do to support this month to support the employment of people with disabilities, how you can change things, whether you are going to bring into your company, your organization, who you work for, or whether you know, join social media campaigns or elevate people with disabilities in the workforce or without to try and solve this problem. So we have a lot coming up. And I think we’re done talking. So let’s just get to it.

André Floyd

Welcome to ANCOR Links. I’ll be having this conversation here with Maya Cox. Maya, please introduce yourself.

Maya Cox

Hi there. My name is Maya Cox. And I’m really excited to be here today. I am an associate manager at Public Consulting Group. And I lead a lot of work around disability employment. And I also have the pleasure of serving as the board president for the National Board of Directors for APSE.

André Floyd

And for people who may not know can you let people know?

Maya Cox

Of course, thank you for the prompt. APSE is a national organization is a membership organization. And it stands for the Association for People Supporting Employment First. So it is an advocacy voice at the state and federal levels, where we’re supporting programs and opportunities for people with disabilities to have employment as their first option. And then we also have a lot of training opportunities for individuals who would like to strengthen their skill set and app see if people aren’t familiar with it. APSE has a certification called the CESP, the certification for employment support professionals, which is a really wonderful opportunity to get a credential and advance your career if you are in the employment field and looking to solidify that.

André Floyd

Love that and thanks again for joining us. So as you may or may not know, audience, October is indeed what we call and National Disability Employment Awareness Month. So this is why we wanted to have this conversation as well and also talk to Maya in particular about this. So Maya, if you could, let’s talk a little bit about the employment of people with disabilities. We’ll talk about that overall, kind of where that effort comes from why this month is so important in that respect.

Maya Cox

National Disability Employment Awareness Month happens every October. And it is an opportunity for us to celebrate the contributions that people with disabilities have to the American workforce. And there are a wide variety of individuals participating across the country in very valuable positions. And that’s awesome. But there’s a gap, there’s a gap between the number of individuals participating in the workforce if you have a disability versus if you don’t, and so, this month is an opportunity for us to celebrate and acknowledge all of the awesome work happening, and also to acknowledge that we have work to do in closing that labor gap to make sure that, you know, as from an equity perspective, people with disabilities are fully represented in the workforce and have all the benefits that participating in the workforce has to offer.

André Floyd

Yeah, and I think I want to I want to touch on that last part a little bit, because you mentioned all of the benefits of participating in the workforce and what that offers, because I think that that will be a natural link to a lot of DEIA work and how it intersects. But before we get there, could you maybe detail some of those benefits of participating in the workforce, because I think from a pretty high level, you know, people think of jobs as jobs. But I think depending on your background, and you know, the context of it, it can be so much more, and it is so much more than sometimes people can take for granted, particularly in a population like people with disabilities.

Maya Cox

Sure. So I think there are a few high-level items that I’d like to highlight. And I’ll say that some of them are data-driven, and some of them are more like, I don’t know, social soft benefits of participating in the workforce. So first, big one, we know that people with disabilities experience poverty at a higher rate than individuals without disabilities. And that’s definitely a fact. And employment is a way that many of us make sure that we can get out of poverty is through employment. And I know that there is a lot of conversation about expectations, there can be challenges and fear about losing benefits. But I would encourage folks to make sure that they get qualified information from their local work incentives providers, to make sure that they are making an educated and informed decision because there are so many ways to make sure that you have a safety net and also break the cycle of poverty. And, you know, kind of move out of that statistic. Another important factor that is, another statistic and really important is that we know that participating in the workforce is good for mental health. And we know that people with disabilities are often more marginalized, they have a higher likelihood of feeling lonely, and there is a high comorbidity rate with disabilities and a mental health condition. And so we know that working improves mental health. And so we know that, you know, that’s something that we can target and between the financial piece and the mental health piece, I think it’s incredibly important. And that mental health piece, I think relates a lot to social networks, the natural supports that we all have in our life. Some of the greatest relationships I’ve had with peers and friends have been people I’ve met through work, there are people who I have common interests with, people I have a shared passion with and I’ve known these folks throughout my life, as I’ve grown in my career, and so I think having that social network, and that camaraderie is probably a part of that mental health piece, I probably I bet it kind of fits in. And then I think it’s also important to think about, you know, for better or for worse, in the US culture, employment plays a large part in what we expect and how we perceive people’s social status and sense of self. If you meet someone at a party, you are very likely to talk to them and introduce them and you know, you’re we’ll find out where they’re from, what neighborhood they live in, maybe who do you know, in common? And what do you do? Right? What do you do for work? And I think that that example just speaks to how ingrained a lot of Americans feel that work is, and a lot of times the role that you play, or the job that you have has a perceived social status that goes along with it. And so, you know, I’m not I’m not given judgment one way or the other about if that’s right or wrong, but that is true, I think, in my in my lived experience, and so I think that that can definitely play a role as well. And, you know, I think culture has changed a lot, right? We are making sure that we have high expectations for people with disabilities, just like we have high expectations for any young person entering the workforce and, I think most will say, most folks going from probably high school into the beyond whether they’re starting a post-secondary program, or choosing a different path in their life, most folks work or are working toward being employed. And it’s probably few and far between that people have the opportunity to not work and to be able to be financially secure. So I think it’s around those high expectations and making sure that people have the resources and supports they need to live their best life, you know, to have the good stuff to go on vacation, to have valued relationships to make sure that you’re socially engaged and within your community. So I think there’s, I mean, those would be the high-level factors that I would say kind of play into why is work important, why are we talking about employment, and people with disabilities.

André Floyd

Yeah, I love the conversation that can come up between, you know, work-life balance, and you know, self, because we don’t want to define ourselves strictly by our jobs. But having a job is also very important to just like, live a more comfortable life, like you said, avoiding poverty and things like that as well. So it’s like, yes, these existential questions about larger society can come up. But it’s also like when you drill down, it’s like, well, this is the way things are. So how do we make things more equitable on that level for everybody?

Maya Cox

Yeah. And I think sometimes, you know, we think about people having enough. But there’s a difference between someone living on Social Security and getting their basic needs met, versus living the life that they want to have that they envisioned to have. And that requires extra funds. And so I think that it’s important to talk about, and it’s important to consider.

André Floyd

Yeah, so another thing I wanted to talk a little bit about, and I think we can introduce, you know, DEIA work, here at ANCOR internally is diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility work. And really what it’s centered on is identifying and noticing oppressive structures, addressing them, finding ways to avoid them, and finding ways to counter them. And I think that employment plays a huge role with that, particularly within the disability community. So from your perspective, what intersections do you see with employment of people with disabilities, and the DEIA efforts that are becoming quite popular across major companies down to you know, ANCOR’S nonprofit of 16 employees?

Maya Cox

Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think we could probably talk all day long about this. I think, you know, first off the bat, when we talk about how the DEIA is becoming, you know, very embedded and ingrained within the corporate culture, disability is a form of diversity. And that is, that is the easiest thing to say, right there. And, you know, I think the pandemic, there was a lot of really hard things. But one great silver lining that I think came out of it is that people understood that we may be one person at work, but we are all whole people and whole selves. And we really all can use accommodations from time to time, whether or not it’s because someone has a medical condition, or it’s because of a familial situation where perhaps you need to have some flexibility, because of you know, you’re caring for someone else, things like that. I think that idea, at least from what I’ve seen, has introduced the idea that we have to be flexible, and we can’t always be 100%. And we can all do a great job, if we customize and tailor jobs to be to make sense for us. And, you know, I think also with the pandemic, an awful thing is that so many people acquired disabilities. And I think that also, honestly normalized it quite a bit that this is something that can happen. Some people are born with disabilities, some people acquire them later in life. And that’s something that we can work around and manage. And still, you know, no one is hired because of what they can’t do. They’re hired because of what they can from an equity perspective. And when we talk about disability, we should make sure that people with disabilities are represented in the workforce, like any other characteristic of diversity may be and it doesn’t mean that we need to ask people to disclose their disabilities, it doesn’t mean that we need to be highlighting it. But I think it’s important to think about from an equity perspective, what are we doing from a cultural perspective, as well as an access perspective of how can we make the workplace a welcoming and inviting place for people who work different ways, right, and thinking flexibly about making sure that we aren’t writing job descriptions or having benchmarks that are there because they’ve always been there rather than because they’re functionally important to get the job done? You know, and I think something important to consider for inclusion and access and there’s a couple of different pieces that I would like to think about or talk about, you know, accessibility means lots of different things to me. Of course, you can talk about accessibility from a building perspective, you can also talk about accessibility from an information perspective and setting up systems and processes in ways that are easier for lots of people to understand. And I think it’s something that’s coming more and more into the, into the norm, you know, I have a degree in special education. And so I had the great benefit of getting an education in breaking down complex topics into smaller pieces so that people who use visual supports, can take in information in a different way. And it’s so it’s been so valuable to me, because, I mean, it helps me in my personal life, and I see sees certain things that are out in the community where people are doing that. And it’s benefiting people who have a lower reading level people who English as a second language. And it’s interesting, because I love that also in the work that I do for my day job. It’s also coming into play because people want, for example, reports that are accessible to people who are using different types of assistive technology. They want websites that are easy to read and take in for people who have different modalities of understanding and different modalities of reading. But I think we are all benefiting from making access available to a wider audience. I think that everyone wins.

André Floyd

Yeah, I really think that accessibility part is really interesting and thinking of it as a win for more people, it’s just a widening of an audience. And I think that’s one way that I think framing accommodations or whatever it may be, maybe people think or believe it’s a burden, or maybe they have in the past felt like it’s a burden, or maybe still do. But what it does is really widen the audience. And it also makes information more accessible, which I think is something that everybody benefits from. So one other portion of the DEI work that is going on as well is in order to be fully inclusive in order to be fully accessible. One thing that is often overlooked a little bit is it’s obviously not just quotas, or making sure you have a certain workforce that looks a particular way, a lot of this is about culture. And how many cultures are able to be fully accepted, be fully appreciated within the dominant culture and what is in some of the ways a society has been built around the dominant culture. And I know you and I have talked about this quite a bit. And you have a very interesting perspective as well on this because of your background. So I wanted you to just share with us a little bit about what the cultural aspect of it is, and how that also relates to employment overall, but specifically, the employment of people with disabilities.

Maya Cox

You know, each of us comes with our own lived experience. And a lot of what we’ve talked about today could be considered the perspective of someone who grew up in the US, who comes from a certain culture who comes from a certain lived experience, who had the benefit of being able to go to schools and have opportunities to work, and have the support to do so. And I think when we talk about equity, and access and inclusion, it’s also really important to think about culture and everybody’s individual lived experiences. I know that me personally, I am the daughter of an immigrant, and my dad, and his family immigrated from Hong Kong when he was a teenager. And he and his family worked really, really hard. They, you know, it was a very stereotypical story of Chinese immigrants, where my grandparents had Chinese restaurants and my dad would go to school, come home, take care of his brother. And then after that, he would do the books for the restaurant. And my grandmother would work from like 9am in the morning till 2am at night and work was work with her life. But it also was an opportunity to change their economic trajectory and their outcome. And they, you know, they moved here so that my dad could go to college. Again, not a not a novel concept by any means. But that’s, that’s the story that I come with. And that’s what I’ve seen my lived experience is I’ve seen my father and my grandparents, am I and my other family to work really, really hard. And that be a core component of who they are, and what they want, you know, what they want for their children, and what they perceive as valuable. And I know that that certainly impacts me. I’ve dedicated my career to helping others gain and access employment. That that is important to me. But I also want to acknowledge and call out that different cultures view work in different ways. And I will say that, you know, so I’m half Chinese, my mom is Caucasian. But my dad’s culture that it’s not always person centric, where you’re doing something for yourself to advance one’s owns life and financial status and things like that. It’s very community centric. and family centric family is the most important unit. So, you know, my grandparents came over here for their family, that was the most important thing. And I know I’ve, I’ve experienced it myself, I have a sister with developmental disabilities. And I have friends who also come from cultures that are, you know, different types of Asian communities and families the most important thing, and it’s not necessarily personal advancement or work all the time, right. And I think that that concept in that conversation is incredibly important. Because one thing that I realized and that you have to be really open and honest about is that the idea of Employment First is that everyone has the option. But it’s not that everyone has to that work can play a different role for different people in their lives. And that’s also true right at, you know, with the pandemic, and with the changes in the workforce, lots of people made a choice to take care of their family, and had to, and that was the most important thing at that point, right. And I think it’s important to remember that, that different cultures do perceive work in different ways, they perceive individual decision making in different ways. And it’s really important that we don’t, that any one of us doesn’t enforce our values on someone else. Because of our own lived experience, or where we come from, and that’s why person centered planning is so important. And the way we ask questions and the way we, you know, set up supports for people that it’s not anyone else, but that person and their family or whoever they’re the important people are in their lives. We have to take that into consideration first.

André Floyd

Yeah, I actually love that to said that, because I think there are, like I said, there’s a lot they can the employment can mean many different things to many different people, you know, we started off talking about it as a way to, you know, stay out of poverty, you know, fix poverty rates among people with disabilities, that can be one motivation, or it can be one just kind of like, additional factor with somebody, you know, values for a job. I kind of went in, and I think that holistic look at things at a full person, their culture, their once, you know, that self-determination that we talk about, I think, ultimately, that is the goal of the DEIA work. Anyway, I think a lot of people look at it. And it’s, especially some detractors of the work will think that, you know, it’s about what you can and can’t say, or promoting one over the other when really, it’s about equity. And it’s about making sure that everyone has the opportunities. And what that does is add inclusion as well. And I think that when you look at the work as making things more inclusive, it makes a lot more sense. From a lot of for a lot of different people. Because we the society that we kind of existed and have existed in has been exclusionary to a lot of people. And so working against that is really important. And I think employment is a big part of that. And like you said, so is the self-determination piece as well, which I think is quite interesting. And I appreciate you saying that and sharing your story, but also kind of acknowledging the fact that there can be multiple cultures, very different ways that are still valid.

Maya Cox

Absolutely. My story of being an immigrant daughter is one story, and that everyone who has a different experience, could learn from that in a different way. Right. And I think that that’s an opportunity for us to make sure that we’re listening and learning from others, and not taking that first initial thought that we might have in our mind as the first one that goes.

André Floyd

Yeah, absolutely. One other thing that you touched on that I thought was super important, because another thing about the DEIA work is thinking about, like, let’s assess the landscape who’s being excluded? And why you mentioned that people with disabilities, but also at the intersections, are you Black? Are you Jewish? Are you queer? All of these things absolutely, also add on top of, you know, identities that people can have. But I think in practice, one of the things that the DEIA work aims to do is to identify ways in which people are being excluded. So when it comes to employment, and I thought this was a great piece, and I would love for you to kind of talk about what you’ve seen as well in your work, and how it’s changing a bit. But I think everything from like application processes can exclude people right off the bat, even though they may qualify for a job, they won’t have a way to apply for it. And then they end up taking a job that is not up to their skill set their abilities or their best what they can actually accomplish. Sure. And so that changes too and that that actually also has an impact on mental health as well. If you know that you can be doing something greater but you’re doing something that you maybe don’t want to be doing that can impact you as well. So I think one of the interesting things about D A work is when you put it into practice, you try to find all the ways that are exclusionary and you try to work at it, changing those processes. So in your work, what have you kind of seen in terms of processes that are changing, that are helping to make different sorts of jobs, different sorts of employment opportunities available for a wider range of people?

Maya Cox

So I mentioned that I work for Public Consulting Group. And that is a public sector consulting firm, which means that we work with the public sector, we worked with state agencies and a little bit of federal work, too. And I have the pleasure of working with vocational rehabilitation agencies from across the country. And in case anyone doesn’t know what vocational rehabilitation does. It helps people who have disabilities, overcome barriers to employment, and helps them get jobs and helps them get the supports they need to be successful and stay in those jobs. And so your question is a great one around what are people doing to support DEIA for people with disabilities, and I’d love to point and to call out a few states that I’m working with that are doing really cool things. So one of the really great programs that I’ve had an opportunity to support is the STEM UP program, which is funded through a disability Innovation Fund, and it is a five-year demonstration project that is supporting the state of Michigan and the state of Louisiana, both of those rehab programs in helping people who have disabilities, and our STEM careers. So not only are they helping people with disabilities enter those careers, they’re also supporting and welcoming and inviting and really emphasizing people who have diverse backgrounds to participate in these programs. Because, as we talked about, and André, as you noted, people who have a disability and also are, for example, of a different race or ethnicity, or have a different factor, have even more barriers to gaining employment and the employment that they want to get. So STEM careers are often higher paying, they have a career pathway where it’s not only an entry level job, it is something that goes above and beyond. So that’s a way that you know, the state of Michigan and the state of Louisiana are making sure that they are creating opportunities that increase equity that increase access to jobs that are higher paying and are in demand. So the state of Indiana has done so much great work around improving access, improving outcomes for people with a wide range of disabilities, and making sure that people get the services that they need to be successful. And this recent incentive program is pushing the envelope it’s pushing the outcomes to be, you know, breaking out of the poverty cycle. Being above a living wage being full-time or more than 32 hours, making sure that people aren’t just being employed, being employed is awesome. But what’s even more important is that you’re breaking that poverty cycle and that your job is helping you achieve the life you want to live in a good life. And it has to you know, it’s important. So that’s something else cool that’s going on, that I’ve been really excited about at APSE. APSE also is doing a lot of cool stuff around DEIA, they focus on from a policy perspective, from a training perspective, looking at the intersectionality of employment first, and diversity, equity and inclusion and access. And there are so many different ways that this is hitting home part of it is you know, and making sure that when we’re talking about the workforce, our membership, people who are providing supports and services to people with disabilities, it’s really important that for example, people who are receiving services have people who they can see in the workforce that looks like them talks like them as a part of their community. We also I was really happy and excited to see, I’m actually supporting research coming out from different individuals of diverse backgrounds, and also doing research in diverse communities to make sure that from an equity perspective, that we have diverse voices in our research body, and that not all the research is coming out of a particular bubble where all the conditions are the same. So those are two really exciting pieces. I’m sure Amcor is also doing some really cool stuff. I think it’s been really exciting and interesting to see how APSE, you know, has been committed as an organization to Employment First how it has been enriched and grown, as we look at how we can make sure that diverse voices are included. It’s been really, really cool.

André Floyd

Thank you. And I appreciate that. You said it gave us a lot of good information about what’s going on in multiple states and also different organizations. I think research is a huge component of things as well, it’s really important to get that data so that you can actually you know, advocate, you know, for funds for programs or things like that to solve these problems. The one concerning thing you said there was that 2015 was eight years ago that really just blows my mind in a way that I was not prepared to hear that bluntly. So thank you for causing me a bit of a, you know, emotional disturbance. Getting back to the conversation, and I thank you for your time, I just wanted to so if you’re listening, and you’re interested in those programs, I think you can absolutely get involved, look them up, you know, get in contact, we’ll put some information in the show notes as well. I think whether you are at an organization or a company that’s doing the work or not, I think you can take a look at hiring processes, and even review those to make sure that from the jump, nobody’s being excluded. And I think there are different resources out there as well, that can help. But my effort for kind of the everyday person who might be listening to this and thinking, wow, this is a lot, it’s deep, it’s a lot going on. And if they don’t have expertise in it, if they’re not sure where to start, October is a month, that is basically promoting awareness about the importance of employment for people with disability. So how can people just get involved and help kind of promote the message, even if they can’t make any of these large-scale decisions that would have.

Maya Cox

So if you Google N D E A M, or National Disability Employment Awareness Month, the Office of Disability Employment Policy has all kinds of wonderful resources available, so that you can learn more about the month, you can download posters or different kinds of visual supports that you might bring to your employer to see if you can print it out, put it on the wall, share it with your colleagues. And I think you know, André, to your point about raising awareness, this is something that impacts Americans every day of the year. And I think it’s good to sit back and think about how our peers very likely have differing abilities and may need extra help. And you know, what? So do I. So do we all. It’s all about the way we view things. And I think, from an equity and inclusion perspective, I think people with disabilities give us different vantage points, to see the world and to find solutions and strengths. And I celebrate, and I’m so happy to be amongst them.

André Floyd

Yeah, absolutely. I love the advocacy piece, I think everybody can do that. And I think if we get enough people that are spreading the word, you know, challenging old ways of thinking, you know, that’s, that’s part of work as well, that needs to be done. So, Maya, thank you so much for this conversation was great to talk with you. And thank you so much for your honesty, and for your information.

Maya Cox

Hey, thank you. Thank you so much for the opportunity, and it was great to chat.

Donna Martin

Hello, my name is Donna Martin. I am the Senior Director for state partnerships and innovation with ANCOR. And I am really excited to be here today with my colleague Jeannine Pavlak. She is the president and CEO of the New England Business Associates. And we have been working together for a number of years on a project called NEON. We’re here today to talk about that project to talk about employment first, and to basically celebrate National Disability Employment Awareness Month. So welcome, Jeannine, it is great to have you here. And I’d love it if you took a few moments to tell us about yourself and your background, and what you’re doing.

Jeannine Pavlak

Thank you, Donna for having me. This is such a perfect time to have these conversations about employment given that it is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. Let’s see, about me. I’ve been in the field for 34 years, I just celebrated my 34th anniversary and started as a job coach or an employment specialist back then. And I’ve done just about everything in the realm of disability employment, and now fortunate enough to lead an organization that helps people find competitive integrated employment in the states of Massachusetts and Connecticut.

Donna Martin

That’s really exciting. I can remember years ago when I started in the field, people were talking about supported employment as a vehicle to help people get really included in their local communities to help them achieve greater financial independence. And I feel like we have been on this path to assist people in this way for a really long time. Can you tell us, Jeannine a little bit about the Employment First approach as a strategy and as a vision?

Jeannine Pavlak

Sure, of course, each state has a little bit of a different kind of view about what that is, but from kind of my standpoint is that employment if people are receiving funding for services that employment should be the first option offered. And people should be really supported to kind of help build their frame of reference for what work could look for them. So it’s not an a just an annual, would you like to look for a job conversation? It’s an ongoing, let’s make sure people really know what work is and the benefits of employment for everybody.

Donna Martin

That’s great. And I think it really is exemplified in the work that we are doing the project that brought us together. It’s called NEON, and it has been a great opportunity for many of the ANCOR members to get some additional resources and support. Can you talk about why you think NEON has been an important project and sort of how it’s structured and what we’re doing?

Jeannine Pavlak

Sure. So NEON, the National Expansion of Employment Opportunity Network, we have so many acronyms in our field, is really an effort through the Office of Disability Employment Policy. And the idea behind it is to really help providers across the country expand their capacity to increase the number of people with disabilities who are receiving services, to find competitive integrated employment. And so it’s been a super interesting project. Of course, it originated with five national membership organizations, which was of course, ANCOR, APSE, ACCSES, SourceAmerica, and The Arc US. And kind of the original design was that those five national provider organizations would receive some technical assistance and training that could be offered to all your members, but that some providers could also receive some, some one-on-one very specific technical assistance and training. Each state is in a different kind of, or different places in terms of, you know, kind of their employment rate for people with disabilities. But breaking down those silos, and really looking at the person as a whole person. And kind of what I like to say is, you know, employment is everybody’s job. So I might, you might have a different title, or you might work in a different program. But we all have opportunities to really spend time with people and figure out their gifts and what they love to do. And so, by really sharing that information has helped really kind of expand the numbers of people, even thinking about employment, which has been really exciting.

Donna Martin

Yeah, that has been really exciting. And I don’t know if it was intentional, or if it is just sort of happened to this way. But one of the really great things about this project, as I see it, is it is flexible enough to meet the needs of the providers in any given state, despite where they are on that path. I think it’s been an incredible resource for our members who have opted in to be a part of it.

Jeannine Pavlak

It’s been interesting conversations, too. So although we want to continually look to those adults who might be in some more segregated programs, and really providing them opportunities, obviously, to become members of their community, and hopefully, employees, within businesses within their communities. But what’s been really interesting to see nationally is as younger adults are transitioning out of high school, they’re looking for different options. And so, you know, these are young folks who have been included, many of them, the majority of them, and so they’re looking for opportunities to remain in their community and be very active and want to work.

Donna Martin

So we were talking about the community of practice that we’ve started among our data association, and in 2024, we are going to be launching a new community of practice that is focusing on frontline supervisors, or those direct managers that are in the field, having to train and support and coordinate the direct support professionals, the employment specialists that are the boots on the ground, so to speak. This was your idea, you brought this to the table, and we put out a call for interest. And it has been remarkable, the robust interest that the ANCOR members have expressed in participating in this. Can you talk a little bit Jeannine about where this idea came from and why you thought it might be a valuable endeavor?

Jeannine Pavlak

So it started initially, it’s been on my mind for a long time is that so many people who have been in this field for a long time who have a lot of historical knowledge, are retiring or will be retiring. And I don’t feel like as a community that works in this field, that we’ve really identified a way to really kind of support and bring up other people who can then kind of fill those roles. And so I think about ways to do that all the time. But then because of NEON seeing kind of that turnover rate, not only with the frontline direct service staff, but that mid-level manager supervisor role, seeing that turnover as well just kind of made me start thinking that we need to provide that level more support and some tools and training as well. Oftentimes, with limited resources, we have to make sure that our frontline staff are certified, if that’s, you know, part of that state’s requirements or that they have training. And sometimes we just forget about that kind of mid-level. And their job is the hardest because they have to like walk in between kind of their executive leadership and their the staff that they’re supporting, and try to kind of shift communicate back and forth kind of what’s going on and what folks are really seeing in the evening. So I just find it to be such a critical role, I think it’d be exciting to kind of hear people and connect to have those people connect. So they have the opportunity to share and things that they’ve learned or things that they want to learn. And we can make sure that we can bring that to the table.

Donna Martin

Yes, it is really exciting. And I also see that it from a supervisory perspective is it is a whole different type of calculus, when you’re, for example, working in a congregate day setting, and your staff or within arm’s reach most of the day versus when you are supervising people that are working in disparate settings across the community, it’s a very, it takes a different skill set. And so I’m really excited to know that we’re going to be able to offer this support and resource and training for those mid-level managers, those frontline supervisors, to help them and to give them a community of support to give them a network of peers that they can talk to and that they can lean into as they’re developing their skill and improving their practice. So I think this particular community of practice is going to be a lot of fun. Another thing that I wanted to get your thoughts on is, what do you see as, like supports or resources needed during stages of employment acquisition. You know, when I was in graduate school, my mentor used to say pre means never. So the thought of pre-vocational people sort of getting stuck in that segment of service and needing to sort of achieve certain hurdles that they may or may not achieve, but need to hit these marks before they were, quote, ready for employment. Can you talk a little bit about how our thinking has evolved over the years? And how employment specialists are maybe doing that differently now?

Jeannine Pavlak

Sure. Well, you’re right. So years ago, right, it was kind of the norm, or the belief that people needed to kind of become ready, you know, kind of practice, practice, get it right, then find employment, where now it’s really like, No, right? Like, the best way to try employment is to try employment, and we’ve all made mistakes, and that’s okay. And it’s that kind of presumption that everyone is employable, regardless of what kind of the challenges might be. So now, when you’re really looking at Community competitive, integrated employment, that role does shift greatly. For those for those direct staff. There’s employment specialists. And so they’re really looking at now there’s so many things, so much technology that’s available for people. But there is this level of kind of constant growth now, for that, that direct level staff that it’s you know, people are really autonomous, in their in their work. And so we need to make sure that, you know, we allow them those opportunities and empower them, that hands-on learning is what’s critical, right? So people with disabilities, or people with cognitive impairments generally learn best in real-life situations. So the idea of practice is a bit outmoded. I mean, there’s some, you know, certainly there’s some credibility or some value to practice. But I wanted to sort of stimulate some dialogue around how around that idea of a person with a disability shouldn’t have to go through all these hurdles before they’re ready to try a job.

Donna Martin

So let’s talk about the NEON project Jeannine. Can you do you remember exactly when we started?

Jeannine Pavlak

We started right before the pandemic, which was 2020. And so we met, I think like December or January, that was kind of the kickoff for us for the first year for NEON. And I remember, I think we had like one meeting, I then was in Pennsylvania with RCPA, and all of the provider’s phones, were going off with messages, right, we need to shut down. I hopped on a train, and I was heading back home. And it was just so surreal, like, okay, and then it was a good probably year. And then we were able to start kind of doing things at least remotely and through Zoom and at least start having those conversations again. And now thankfully, we can be in person, because when the pandemic first hit, it was our members day services and employment services that were the first to shut down. And so many people with disabilities were the frontline people who were the essential workers. I know all of my staff were still providing supports because people had to be at work. They were working in grocery stores, they were working in hospitals, they were essential employees.

Donna Martin

So as we kind of round out our conversation. At the beginning, I mentioned that this is National Disability Employment Awareness Month. I’m wondering if you can close this out by talking a little bit about why that’s important and why it’s an exciting time.

Jeannine Pavlak

Through the National Disability Employment Awareness Month, there are lots of activities going around, you know, through the country, the Office of Disability Employment Policy has different resources that businesses and providers can use to, you know, kind of get that word out. Several states have, you know, bring businesses in as the, you know, kind of a thank you, and have them invite an employer maybe who hasn’t had the opportunity to hire a person with a disability. I know we do that many providers do that. APSE, the Association for People Supporting Employment First, has a whole toolkit on bring your legislator to work day so that our legislators can see people working in the community and see how valued they are and how integral they are working amongst their coworkers.

Donna Martin

Well, Jeannine, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a lot of fun talking to you reminiscing a little bit about the start of NEON, and being reminded about the importance of supporting people to realize their employment goals and competitive integrated employment is basically the north star here. But it’s not the only star. And it’s great that we are able to bring these resources through NEON with the support of a subject matter expert like yourself to the providers that we work with who are trying to help each person meet their employment dreams. So thank you.

Jeannine Pavlak

Thank you, Donna for having me. It was it was really, it was great having a conversation with you.